Ep 138 Brainspotting and Open Floor to Heal Mind, Body, and Soul with Cori Hildebrandt

[00:00:00] Cynthia: You are listening to the Well Connected Twin Cities podcast. I'm your host, Cynthia Shockley, and I'm here to learn alongside you through meaningful conversations with health and wellness practitioners. This is your time to experience some mindset shifts, learn practical tips, and get excited about what is possible.

[00:00:22] We want you to own the power of choice in your personal well being journey. Let's discover what's possible right here in our Twin Cities community.

[00:00:33] Hey, everyone. I am so excited to have a conversation with Cori Hildebrandt today. In this conversation, we talk about brain spotting and how it allows individuals to face their fears, anxieties, triggers, practice mindful neutrality as they face these challenges. Cori also shares about Open Floor, a movement practice that invites more presence and freedom in the body.

[00:01:02] But most importantly, we discuss the intersection between these two modalities, both informed by neuroscientists and how they heal mind, body, and soul. Sit back and enjoy this conversation with Cori Hildebrandt.

[00:01:18] Here we are with Cori Hildebrand. So good to see you, Cori. 

[00:01:24] Cori: Hi, Cynthia. I'm happy to be here. 

[00:01:27] Cynthia: Yes, I know. I'm just feeling we were talking about just a little giddy Ooh, this is fun. We get to talk. I know our first conversation before this interview too, there was just so much we were able to connect on.

[00:01:39] And so I'm really excited to be able to share with the well connected listeners a little more about you and your journey and then just what you're offering because I think it's really unique and cool and just the combination of what you're doing. So let's, yeah, let's start with just first, I know, first and foremost, you are a therapist in your profession.

[00:02:02] So what drew you into this field? Tell us a little bit about that story. 

[00:02:07] Cori: Sure. So I think I just naturally was always very curious at a very young age. And I loved asking questions. My mom will tell stories of when I was even a toddler, and I would just walk up to random people and just be like, blah, blah, blah, and just ask them something completely random.

[00:02:23] And so I just have had a natural curiosity about people, I think. And then when I was in high school, I had an AP psych class, and that was when I was really introduced to the study of psychology. And I just found it super fascinating. And when I did my undergrad at UW Madison, I have a degree in psychology, and I also studied criminal justice and business.

[00:02:45] And so I initially didn't After graduating undergrad, I initially didn't go off into the world, into the field of psychology, I went more into the business world, and then around when I was 30 ish, I decided to make a career change, and it felt really important to me to be self employed, and so I started thinking about ways That I could be self employed and combine my interest in people with my interest in running a small business.

[00:03:11] And that was really where I landed on that therapy would be a good fit. And so I went to Adler Graduate School in the in Richfield at the time in Minnesota. 

[00:03:20] Cynthia: Yeah. And so to go from, Corporate to the private practice. You said there's this interest in owning your own business being in charge, I'm curious what made you decide finally at, in the thirties, like I'm ready.

[00:03:35] This is time. Yeah, 

[00:03:38] Cori: I think a huge piece of it was that I love to travel and I was fortunate enough to take some planned time off where I traveled for several months at a time. And it just really woke something up in me where it was like, I don't want to be confined to a Monday through Friday, nine to five kind of job, predominantly the most of the majority of the year like working on this schedule, and just really wanted the freedom and flexibility that I could find in self employment, so that I could travel.

[00:04:10] And a lot of my business is set up virtually at this point with the thought of I could be abroad or, I'm still able to work and maintain my business without having to be, like, at home. Yeah. 

[00:04:22] Cynthia: Oh, that is the dream, right? Being able to work from anywhere, have that flexibility. So it sounds like you were able to just take advantage of the skill set that you have and then get to work on building your business.

[00:04:38] And I know a part of what you offer is brainspotting. When did brainspotting enter the picture? And can you also tell us a little more about what that is? 

[00:04:48] Cori: Sure. So I was introduced to brain spotting several years ago. I had reached out to a local EMDR therapist to do my own therapy, my own EMDR work.

[00:04:59] And so I had made an appointment with this woman I had researched. And in our first meeting, she had just said to me, have you ever heard of brain spotting? I do something called brain spotting. It's, I see amazing results with it. Would you be open to giving it a try? And so we ended up doing probably almost like 15 ish sessions of brain spotting together instead of EMDR.

[00:05:20] And I just really felt the reason I was going was for anxiety and it really got to the point where like I just didn't have anxiety at all after doing these brain spotting sessions. And I just was really excited by it and just thought I have to learn this modality and offer it to my clients.

[00:05:38] It also appealed to me that it was something different than talk therapy. And I felt like I had done a lot of different interventions that were based around talk therapy, and there was some other level that I needed to do therapeutically to be able to really heal the next piece. And so just the fact that brain spotting is something that it's beyond talking it's very experiential, it's accessing.

[00:06:02] your subcortical brain and body. And so it's something different than what, oh, other avenues that are out there. And so it's just really exciting to be able to offer it to clients. 

[00:06:12] Cynthia: Yeah, and I know that I've heard from other people that having something that can access psychological healing that doesn't require talk therapy just opens up an avenue for a lot of people who need that healing.

[00:06:29] But maybe just talking about it is too much or it's uncomfortable and it's just like that barrier that prevents them from getting the help that they need. And so brain spotting is one of those tools. Can you tell us what happens in brain spotting? What is it? 

[00:06:46] Cori: Yeah. I was going to comment quick that I did a blog post once that I think I called, you don't need to talk about it to heal it.

[00:06:53] And it was quite, from the analytics, I could tell it was quite popular. And it's really true in the brain spotting realm that you really don't have to talk about it to heal it. So I think there's that camp of people, but then there's also people that Like, talk therapy can be very useful and they're very engaged in it and you can gain insight and learn tools and at some point it can still just, your healing can be limited because certain things we know you can't access through talking.

[00:07:20] And so what brain spatting really does is by using, and It's hard to understand it, I think, without actually trying it for a lot of people. But essentially it's like where we look affects how we feel. And so we utilize a fixed eye position that corresponds to a felt sense of activation in the body to access your mid low brain body based processing.

[00:07:46] And when you brain spot, you do this like hyper focused mindfulness process where it allows your body to metabolize. and regulate and return you to a state of homeostasis?

[00:07:58] Yeah so 

[00:07:58] Cynthia: your physical eye position, something about that then is associated with certain feelings, emotions, triggers, and so is the invitation then in brain spotting to hold that position of discomfort and then to Almost normalize it. 

[00:08:17] Cori: Yeah. I think about the, so the brain spot is not actually the position in space where you're looking, but it's thought to be like when you're looking at a set point in space, what areas of your brain are activated.

[00:08:31] And so the brain spot is actually within your brain and it could be multiple areas at the same time that are lit up around a certain issue or whatever it is we're targeting. And the thought is that yeah. Yeah, like that visual spot is like an access window or doorway into your neural networks and once we're in the neural network, you just, yeah, as a client, your job is just to try to stay present and be a witness and follow what happens.

[00:08:57] And so you don't have to try to make anything happen. A lot of times I talk about as kids. There's those coloring book pages where they were numbers, where it'd be like, you'd have to go from like the one to the two to the three to the four, the dots and connect them to get the picture.

[00:09:11] Huh. I think about like the brain spot where we start is the one. And we don't know where the two might be, the three, the four, the five, the six, but we just follow and we just 100 percent trust the system. Brain spotting works with an uncertainty principle and so very much we just embrace this like we don't know, like we do not know what will happen and that, that can be a hurdle for clients to get over and doing this work.

[00:09:36] But if they're able to just sit with and relinquish any sense of. Needing to force or make something happen and just observe and attend to what happens. It's really pretty it's very powerful what will come up for people. What the process can look like and from person to person and session to session it can be very different.

[00:09:57] Cynthia: Yeah. Gosh. I'm curious because there are these different experiences. Can you speak to any specific experiences? Maybe you've seen in your clients when they do brain spotting? You mentioned for you, it helped you. Relieve anxiety and that you realized after a few sessions that you weren't feeling that anxiety anymore Do you have any other examples?

[00:10:20] So that we can yeah, see what else what happens? What can people experience? 

[00:10:26] Cori: Yeah, so yeah using this and I want to just say this that brain spadding is considered a complete psychotherapy intervention model It's considered a relational neuroexperiential model that was discovered by David Grand.

[00:10:40] And what I've seen, I would, people I know sometimes ask what can you brain spot? You literally can pretty much brain spot anything as long as there's some kind of felt sense in the body with the thought that being numb is a sensation. Or being disassociated is a sensation.

[00:11:00] But I've seen it do like for grief, if somebody's stuck in a complicated grief response, even with one session of brain spotting where there's been a shift where they're able to just start grieving in a really healthy way. I've worked with clients that have chronic pain types of issues, whether it's like migraine, migraines or other different neurological types of conditions that once they start doing some brain spotting around it and some trauma things and just this chronic pain will really dissipate or even really resolve itself.

[00:11:33] I've seen it work really well for clients that have pretty like active suicidal ideation. Where all of a sudden there'll be like this shift where they are able to connect to some meaning or purpose in living for themselves and it just Wakes them up in a way that they just know something differently in their core, and they just start engaging in life again in a different way.

[00:11:58] I do quite a bit of work with it around anxiety and panic, where it really can seem to, people just start not really Panic attacks will stop essentially or be way less frequent. Clients that have more agoraphobic type symptoms where they maybe don't leave their house or if they do it's with a lot of distress.

[00:12:16] Like I've had a few clients where they've been able to be back out in the world, get jobs again, be engaged in living in, in ways that they just hadn't for years. 

[00:12:28] Cynthia: It's amazing. Yeah. And I feel like the theme that I'm hearing arising is that brain spotting is this tool that allows people to maybe face some of the discomforts in life and in how they're psychologically experiencing life and like you said, reaching that homeostasis, right?

[00:12:53] Where it's more neutral. It's not something that's activating so that whether it's agoraphobia, whether it's anxiety, whether it's grief, it doesn't feel so insurmountable so that they can go out in the world and move through that with ease. 

[00:13:12] Cori: Yeah, I think a lot about what is health and what is healing 

[00:13:16] our bodies want to be at ease. We want to be a well functioning system where all aspects of self are integrated. And yet things happen in life where we have dysregulation and , we suffer injuries like physical, psychological, emotional injuries and things that create cracks in the system.

[00:13:36] When we suffer, when we're in pain. We want to move away from that stuff. We just want to get away from it. And brain spotting really is what you're commenting on, Cynthia. It's actually like a diving into process instead, where it's like with curiosity and openness.

[00:13:53] Oh, this anxiety that I hate and makes me miserable and I want to run away from and just have it disappear. Actually, instead, we're gonna be like let's actually dive in and let's see what we can learn more about this anxiety and where it might be connected to and what will unfold if we just trust our system to be with it.

[00:14:13] Advertisement: Well Connected exists to help you discover the practitioner that aligns with your values. We believe that finding the right fit should be simple and maybe even fun. When you visit wellconnectedtwincities. com, you can search for local practitioners by categories like chiropractic or herbalism, or you can search by condition or symptom in the directory to find practitioners of various healing modalities who can help.

[00:14:40] Discover over 100 local practitioners, browse articles, take classes, and listen to interviews by these very practitioners to learn who is the right fit for you. No matter what it is, we are here to help you say yes to the next stop on your healing journey.

[00:14:58] Cynthia: So you mentioned, the talk therapy isn't necessary in the process but would you say sometimes there's a bit of that talk involved when people are activated and, there might be just natural questions of where this might be coming from? 

[00:15:13] Cori: Sure. Absolutely. So I still do a lot of talk therapy work as well.

[00:15:17] And usually with, even if a client comes specifically for brain spotting, there'll still be some. Parts of talking in each session and sometimes we'll do sessions of brain spotting, we'll do brain spotting session and then the next time maybe we just talk. It really can look different for different clients.

[00:15:33] But yeah, it's never hello, brain spot, there's always some kind of lead in check in. There's a setup process, what do we want to focus on and getting it activated in the body and locating the spot. We usually, we always debrief at the end as well. Yeah, 

[00:15:51] Cynthia: so as, let's say, as a first time client of yours being able to come in, there's that just getting to know each other, the intention, and then finding the actual spot to sit in, to focus on, to maybe have some discussion around, and then maybe find even other spots?

[00:16:14] Is that, or is that kind of like each session is one spot? 

[00:16:17] Cori: Yeah, that's a good question. Usually you will. In one session we'll target one, one issue, and there might be multiple spots. So there's different setups that I utilize. And clients also too, they're free to do whatever they want, so I know the listeners can't see this, but I'm showing Cynthia my telescoping pointer.

[00:16:38] But yeah, once we start on a spot, if a client just they just shift internally or I'm going to look over here, whether they're aware or not, that's totally fine. So someone might touch on multiple brain spots in one session, or there's a rolling setup where we, intentionally do touch on a lot of different spots in the session.

[00:16:59] And there's, I shouldn't comment too, there's two types of brain spots. So I've been talking about activated brain spots, so they're when they hold some kind of sensory activated information that we can think of as being disruptive in some way or not serving our highest good. We also have resource spots.

[00:17:18] And so there's a whole area in brain spotting, too, where we can expand into things that are innately resources inside of us, things that feel good. So it's used a lot in with professional athletes. And in the entertainment industry around like expanding performance. We also can just, if I have a client come and maybe say they are feeling super stressed about something, we might go with the stress or we might actually go with the resource spot, which could be that instead they'd like to feel really grounded or really calm and then we'll find a spot in their body or we have find eye position that corresponds with that sense of ground and calm and then allow that process to unfold and it will typically like really enhance that felt sense of Oh, and they'll really relax.

[00:18:03] Cynthia: That's awesome. So that's really cool. So to know that it's on both ends, that it could be something that activates or something that grounds. And once people are aware of that, let's say position, is that something like they can do at home and just Yeah. 

[00:18:26] Cori: For certain clients, yes. They might have a spot that stays more consistent, where they're like, that's my, like a sleep spot, for example.

[00:18:33] Someone that struggles with insomnia, we might be able to find them a sleep spot, where then they could, sleep. go to their sleep spot at home and lean into it as they prepare to go to bed. It's not always like that, though, for people. Some people, there are, like, very they'll have really set spots that they're aware of and seem more consistent, and other times it's not like that.

[00:18:51] You might have a spot one moment and then it's gone. 

[00:18:55] Cynthia: I'm, like, imagining, I don't know if this exists, but even glasses you can put on that have prescribed spots to look at. 

[00:19:04] Cori: Hey! Brain spotting is very open to innovation who knows? Yeah. It's interesting that you say glasses, because There are setups too where we want to utilize one eye in brain spotting.

[00:19:16] So we'll isolate an eye and yeah, a lot of times I'll have clients with like eye patches or glasses where they can cover an eye and there's different reasons why we want to do that. But all different ways to set it up just depending on what the target hope is and just seeing how clients respond to things and I'll just experiment with different setups.

[00:19:38] Yeah, 

[00:19:39] Cynthia: oh, that's so fascinating. And I know you mentioned you originally went to your Therapist in the past for EMDR and then she's like actually do you want to try brain spotting? What would you say is like the difference between EMDR and brain spotting? 

[00:19:54] Cori: Because yeah, I'm also a certified EMDR therapist and I've practiced EMDR for a lot of years.

[00:19:59] But at this point, I predominantly do brain spotting and I think they're both great modalities. How come I'm leaning more towards brain spotting is because there's a lot less setup to it and EMDR can be more cautious about what kind of issues. They're willing to work with and there might be a lot more resourcing sessions that need to happen before somebody would be ready to really do the EMDR.

[00:20:26] Like a lot of people are familiar with the bilateral stimulation or the eye movements that are used in EMDR. It can take, it could take someone two years to be ready to actually do that. Reprocessing part of EMDR that people think of as EMDR. We're brain spotting typically because the whole point of it is to regulate you.

[00:20:46] There's a lot more yeah, possibility to just get with it and see what your system does. So it's possible that I could do a first session with a client as an intake and kind of set up and then we could brain spot a second session. And I also find that yeah, clients just seem to respond really well to brain sputting.

[00:21:08] Cynthia: And it's so great that you can offer it virtually too. And it's clearly effective. 

[00:21:13] Cori: Yeah. Yeah. Both EMDR and brain sputting transition really well into a virtual environment. And we, we discovered that with the pandemic. But yeah, there are certain clients or certain situations where I still do use EMDR.

[00:21:26] As well, like EFDR works really well for single incident trauma or sometimes the thought of, because when we brain spot, I like to keep people on a spot 30 plus minutes. And so for some clients, just this sitting with this spaciousness or just with curiosity for that long can be challenging. And so EMDR has a lot more stop points and checking in periodically, like even every minute.

[00:21:50] And so there's a lot more happening in it in that way as far as interaction between us. Okay. For certain people. Yeah. 

[00:21:58] Cynthia: Very cool. I know we had talked about brain spotting briefly, but I feel like I have a much better understanding of it now digging into some of this. So hopefully, this is more clear for anyone listening who wants to learn more or is curious.

[00:22:12] And, we'll have links in the show notes to learn more and also to connect with Cori. But I also want to touch on something you and I got really excited when I heard that you are also training to teach something called open floor. So can you also tell us about this other modality?

[00:22:31] Because I know you're, you see a connection between open floor and what you're already doing. So yeah, tell us a little more about that. 

[00:22:38] Cori: Sure. So Open Floor International is an organization based out of California, and they teach like a resource based, mindful movement, conscious dance practice.

[00:22:48] And maybe I can just tell my story of how I was introduced to this. Yes. Oh. I very much have, in myself, professed like non dancer, was somebody that never was comfortable really in my body, if I would have been invited to dance at a wedding, I may have just turned down the invite. And so it was really fascinating to me that probably maybe almost was 10 years ago.

[00:23:12] I was at a retreat in Sedona and they had this piece where it was at the time. I didn't even know what you would have called it, but it was like dancing. Just list like free dancing. And they had this style where it was pretty aggressive and military where it was like. They're just like screaming at us and it's this room of probably like 50 of us just like full on, 100 percent energy, like out of control, like moving.

[00:23:37] And it was just this thing that once I pushed through the like awkwardness and the vulnerability and that self consciousness and they were just like, I just. Let go, and there was this sense of freedom on the other side of that, where it just lit something up inside of me, where I was like, oh, I need to I need to find this at home, and so when I came back to the Twin Cities area, I just was Googling online, and I found Theresa Reed is an open floor teacher out of the cities that Owens Rooted in Rising, and so I started doing classes with her, and then when the pandemic hit, I realized that one of the founders of OpenFloor was doing a virtual class once a week.

[00:24:19] And so I started doing Kathy Altman's virtual class. And then they had a teacher training application process that was opening. And it just felt very right to me. I had contemplated over the years doing like yoga training or, but this was just like a definite yes, I meant to do this. 

[00:24:36] Cynthia: And you got to follow that.

[00:24:38] You got to follow that. 

[00:24:39] Cori: Yeah. Yeah. And then yeah, it's a two and a half year training program. And I'm in a cohort with about 30 other teacher trainers from around the world, which is really fun. And I'm closing in, I should be graduating in March, so I'm getting close to the end. And I will be the first open floor teacher in the state of Wisconsin.

[00:25:01] Wow, 

[00:25:02] Cynthia: that's exciting! 

[00:25:05] Cori: Yeah. Yeah, and maybe I can share just a little bit more about what OpenFloor, like how a class might look. Yeah, I would love to hear that. Yeah, the dancing that I did in Sedona when I'm talking about just the like full on wild chaos, that is not necessarily OpenFloor. OpenFloor was very intentionally designed and there's a whole curriculum to it that was, Brought together by world's kind of experts in neuroscience and experiential arts and psychology and embodiment.

[00:25:35] And so there's a real structure and there's real intent and purpose to it. And so we very much, it's an embodiment practice and so it's all about. connecting with your physical body, being present to your emotional body, your thinking mind, spiritual body. Whereas there are some dance practices out there that definitely they go for that like disassociative, like losing yourself kind of thing.

[00:25:59] Open floor is very much about staying with yourself.

[00:26:03] Cynthia: Yeah, and in the instruction, how are you trained to help people stay with their body and with their movement? 

[00:26:11] Cori: Yeah, so open floor, we, so there's certain parts of the structure to every class that will be the same. And so usually there's like a slower entry that I do in my classes. And so there's a lot of times will be more of like a meditative piece at the beginning.

[00:26:26] And then a really like gentle invitation to movement. And so it's never just like dance, so you absolutely do not have to be a dancer. I love it when people come who aren't comfortable dancing. I think those are the like people exactly that should be trying open floor. But yeah, it's just like drawing attention.

[00:26:44] We always use an embodied anchor in each class. And so I'll come back to whatever the anchor is again and again. I'm teaching a class on Saturday night. We're going to use hands. And so we'll just come back to that theme of like hands over and over, playing with it in different ways, like visually, like semantically, sensation wise.

[00:27:04] So that's one way that you can, it keeps us anchored in our bodies is that we actually use an embodied anchor. And there's, yeah, like we do our explorations, so sometimes there'll be like individual exploration exercises, or we might partner, or we might work in the group body and always just, yeah, connecting back to what the theme is, like connecting back to being present in your body, what are you noticing.

[00:27:29] Cynthia: Amazing. And so I know I'm seeing a bit of this connection between brain spotting, open floor. Can you share your thoughts on the intersection between these two healing modalities? 

[00:27:43] Cori: Yeah. Yeah, I really think, they both are, they're both different avenues of how to connect with yourself. They're different practices, how to attend, how to be aware to what's happening, how to notice, how to cultivate a sense of connection to yourself.

[00:27:59] To others, to spirit, how to increase capacity or how to make more space in your system so that you can be more flexible rather than rigid or more open rather than closed more courageous rather than scared, they're just, yeah, these ways to just expand. And also I think about really just driving at connecting, to that essence, like our true nature of who we really are at the core.

[00:28:28] They're both very much spiritual practices and that's something I don't think I commented on that about brain spotting, but that's something really cool that'll come through for a lot of people in sessions too, is the spiritual piece or connecting to something beyond themselves. And that will happen on the dance floor for people as well.

[00:28:47] Cynthia: I love that aspect of integration, just that, both of these modalities you mentioned that neuroscientists informed these modalities and Yet they are tools to access soul work and to bring all of it together. So I just think that's really beautiful and just so great that you're now adding to your toolkit of things that you will be able to offer.

[00:29:15] Cori: Yeah, they both have an East meets West kind of sensibility to them, where it's like encompassing like the best of both worlds, right?

[00:29:24] For wholeness and health. 

[00:29:28] Cynthia: I love that. It is. It's just. It's all, it all comes together. It really does. And, it's beautiful that you are really tuned into the importance of bringing it all together. This is not just purely about the psychology. It's mind, body, spirit, all of it together, east, west, all together.

[00:29:52] I just know especially the well connected Twin Cities. Community, we believe in integrative care and the power of that to really heal the whole person. And if someone listening is hey, Cori sounds really cool. I want to work with her, whether it's for brain spotting, for open floor, for anything else, what does that process look 

[00:30:14] Cori: like?

[00:30:15] Yeah, so my website, corianderlivingcollective. com, I would say it's a great resource. And so you can go on there and learn more about brain spotting. If you're wanting to schedule a brain spotting session, you can always reach out for a free consultation. Or, I actually have an online scheduling tool where you can initiate and select an appointment through my website.

[00:30:39] When we do brain spotting work, it is considered you becoming a psychotherapy client, and so there's intake paperwork that I electronically send out, and then we'll do our first intake session, talk about Goals, like how we'll work to meet those goals, and then we can get to work on really just, yeah, helping you like accomplish what you're hoping to change in your life or, and then for open floor, I always list on my website as well.

[00:31:07] And on my Grand or Living Collective Facebook page, any upcoming workshops. And so OpenFloor classes will always be listed on my website. People can also join an email list. I always say I try not to be annoying. I send out emails just a handful of times a year to my email list. But yeah, for OpenFloor, a lot of times there'll be a pre registration process, but then you just show up.

[00:31:33] Cynthia: Awesome. If there was just one takeaway, and I know it's always hard to say just one because we discussed a lot today. But if there was one takeaway that listeners left this conversation with, what would you hope it would be? 

[00:31:48] Cori: Yeah, this actually is feels easy to me. I just, I so much believe that if you're suffering or you're dissatisfied.

[00:31:56] To try, start trying stuff. Try something new. Try something different, go on a walk outside if you don't normally do that. Sign up to take some art class. Go somewhere different, try brain spotting, try yoga, just start trying stuff. There's so many avenues, so many ways out there, so many different things resonate for people.

[00:32:18] Don't, yeah, don't do nothing. That's like my biggest advice, is do something different, try something new. 

[00:32:25] Cynthia: Yeah, if you want change, you gotta change it up, yeah, don't 

[00:32:28] Cori: do nothing don't expect something will just magically change because it Probably won't. 

[00:32:33] Cynthia: Beautiful.

[00:32:34] Ah thank you so much, Kory, for your time, for sharing your expertise, and just for doing absolutely everything that you do. I really appreciate you. 

[00:32:45] Cori: Yeah, thank you for having me, Cynthia, and well connected Twin Cities.

[00:32:49] Cynthia: Thank you so much for listening to the Well Connected Twin Cities podcast. Did you learn something new? Did you feel that spark of hope and excitement for what is possible? Because so much is possible. Tell us about it in a review on Apple podcast. Not only would we absolutely love hearing from you, but these reviews help our ratings and help other curious minds like you find this resource.

[00:33:15] We are always better together. Thank you again and see you next time.