Ep 110 Ketamine-Assisted Therapy and Health Coaching with Courtney Padjen and Olivia Beisler

[00:00:00] Cynthia: You are listening to the Well Connected Twin Cities podcast. I'm your host, Cynthia Shockley, and I'm here to learn alongside you through meaningful conversations with health and wellness practitioners. This is your time to experience some mindset shifts, learn practical tips, and get excited about what is possible.

[00:00:22] We want you to own the power of choice in your personal well being journey. Let's discover what's possible right here in our Twin Cities community.

[00:00:33] Hello and welcome to the Well Connected Twin Cities podcast. I'm your host Cynthia Shockley and today I get to talk to Courtney Rose and Olivia Beisler of the Institute for Integrative Therapy. IIT is a company led by subject area experts that work at the intersection of their respective fields and psychedelics.

[00:00:55] Their leaders include the most recognized and dedicated psychedelic informed providers in Minnesota. They strive to heal our communities with psychedelics and integrative healing practices, create and share knowledge, and contribute to the study of psychedelics. IIT is anchored in honoring the history and sacredness of many lineages of medicine.

[00:01:15] We've got Courtney Rose, who is a therapist on staff, and Olivia Beisler, who is a integrative health coach on staff as well. So we'll be able to have a conversation with both of them and hear what it's like working at this institute specifically with ketamine assisted therapy. Let me share a little bit about Courtney.

[00:01:34] Courtney Padgen is a licensed marriage and family therapist based out of Minnesota. She received her Ph. D. in Marriage and Family Therapy in 2021 from North Central University after successfully defending her dissertation titled What's Your Safe Word? Kink?

[00:01:50] America's Current Sexual Revolution. She received her Master's Degree in Clinical Psychology from Argosy University and her Bachelor's Degree in Psychology from the University of . of Wisconsin Stout. Most recently, she started an apprenticeship with the Institute for Integrative Therapies, where she is training to provide ketamine assisted psychotherapy.

[00:02:10] Courtney's the owner of her own private practice, Center for Sexual Wellness. She specializes in sex relationships, trauma, and works with clients on diverse concerns, including the lack of communication, sexual discrepancies, Differing relational expectations and such. She uses an eclectic methodology, pulling from various therapeutic approaches, including solution focused, motivational interviewing, cognitive behavioral therapy, existential, narrative, relational, and trauma focused.

[00:02:39] She has been featured in articles in Cosmopolitan, Insider, PopSugar, and Lavender Magazine, and has presented at conferences in the United States and Canada. She's also a faculty member of the Marriage and Family Therapy Program at National University and a research associate for TASHRA. When Courtney is not busy being a therapist, professor, or research associate, she enjoys being a cat mom to her kitties, Smokey and Puff, and practicing good self care with frequent visits to F45, a decent amount of socializing with friends, listening to audiobooks, attending bi weekly sound baths with a side of Kundalini, and taking at least one nap a day.

[00:03:19] We also will be with Olivia Beisler. Olivia is a nationally board certified health and wellness coach. She received her master's degree in integrative health and well being coaching from the University of Minnesota in December of 2019, and her certification through the National Board of Health and Wellness Coaching 2020.

[00:03:38] She received her bachelor's degree from the College of St. Scholastica with majors in psychology and musical performance. Through the health coaching program, Olivia took courses that focused on different areas of integrative and alternative health, including mindfulness, functional nutrition, physical activity, lifestyle medicine, mind body transformation, and end of life transition and care.

[00:04:02] Olivia personally owns and coaches through Liminal Health and Wellness Coaching, LLC. She currently contracts with several mental health clinics in the Twin Cities, providing wellness coaching for clients, as well as developing integrative programming and awareness around health coaching. Her coaching focuses on working one on one or in small groups, partnering with health,

[00:04:22] Teaching and curating mindfulness practices, combining aspects of allopathic integrative medicine, personal growth, creativity, the arts, supporting vulnerability and exploring the liminal spaces and intersections of mental, emotional, and spiritual health. In her non professional life, Olivia loves to spend time outside gardening, developing native landscapes, and growing herbs and vegetables.

[00:04:45] She enjoys crafts such as weaving and painting, as well as cooking and baking, all of which support and influence her coaching practice. And so here we are. I'm so excited to be sitting here speaking with Courtney and Olivia in our Zoom world, but I almost said in the flesh, but no. Just energetically, we are here together. 

[00:05:10] I love just hearing too, since, I'm sure what we go through today is there's a lot of information.

[00:05:17] And I want to make sure that We do highlight who you two are as individuals in case anyone wants to learn more about you and connect with you as a provider. We're humans first. So Olivia, I'd love to hear what's been bringing you joy lately. 

[00:05:35] Olivia: Thank you for that question. It was fun to think about.

[00:05:38] What's bringing 

[00:05:38] me joy lately is being out in my garden, actually, 

[00:05:43] because we've had some rain. It's finally starting to pop and bloom and the colors are just like, every spectrum of the white rainbow is blooming right now. And it's very therapeutic to just sit out there and enjoy the colors and enjoy the bees and butterflies and everything zooming around you.

[00:06:02] So that's bringing me a lot of joy lately. 

[00:06:04] Cynthia: I love that. I tried gardening once upon a time and I ended up just, yeah, everything did not thrive. I'll need some tips from you later. 

[00:06:17] How about you, Courtney? What's been bringing you joy? 

[00:06:21] Courtney: What has been bringing me joy? I think lately has just been being home.

[00:06:28] I've been traveling a lot and it seems like The travels that I've been going on this year so far have just been back to back where I'll be home for like maybe, less than 24 hours to up to 36 hours before I'm on my next plane. And so I'm just excited to be home and to have the opportunity to.

[00:06:54] Smother my kittens with smooches and give them all kinds of pets and just annoy them and just being in my space is what is bringing me joy right now. Simple things. Yeah. 

[00:07:11] Cynthia: Beautiful. I know there's nothing like home. It is a gift to be able to travel and do all the things, but there's just something about being home, especially cuddling with your fur babies.

[00:07:22] I know. Courtney, you are really digging into ketamine assisted psychotherapy right now. And I'd love to hear from you. If anyone doesn't really understand what this is, can you share what is ketamine assisted therapy? 

[00:07:39] Courtney: Sure. So ketamine treatment does not include therapy or any type of integration. Ketamine treatment typically involves ketamine being administered either orally or intravenously, commonly over the course of an hour, then getting a brief medical evaluation and leaving the doctor's office. So that's ketamine treatment.

[00:08:07] Ketamine assisted psychotherapy is conducted differently depending on the clinic that you're working in. The one I'm most familiar with, of course, is the Institute for Integrative Therapies because that's where I am doing my training. And when you do ketamine assisted psychotherapy at IIT, it is a very thorough process beginning with a diagnostic assessment so that the therapist can get a clear picture of the client, what their areas of growth are, and where they might be stuck.

[00:08:43] Assuming that the client gets the green light from the therapist following the diagnostic assessment, then they go to the medical doctor to get medical clearance to make sure that medically, they're a great candidate for ketamine. So once those two appointments are done, then we would go into preparation sessions.

[00:09:03] You can have one to three preparation sessions typically, and in those sessions that's where we discuss intentions for the medicine, what clients are hoping to get out of it. Some of the things that might be discussed are like, Where the concern that they're experiencing lives in their body what are the roots of this concern, and if they were able to clear it from themselves how would they live their life?

[00:09:33] The goal of these processes prior to the actual ketamine treatment is attunement. We want clients to feel seen and heard and cared for every step of the way. So as soon as clients come to the ketamine session, they are with one of our staff.

[00:09:52] every second as soon as they walk through the door. So this is a very involved process because set and setting play a key role in the success of this treatment. So once clients come to the office they're greeted by the therapist in the clinic lobby before meeting with the doctor. To do a brief medical evaluation to make sure that they're okay.

[00:10:17] The day of the session. So once that medical clearance is done, then, the doctor will walk the client to the room where the ketamine session will take place and the therapist is waiting for them. So this process is, done to ensure psychological and spiritual safety as well as the continuation of attunement.

[00:10:39] So then once clients come to the ketamine treatment room, they are welcome to bring any altar items that they may wish to bring. They set up their altar Explain the significance of the items that they place on their altar. And then they sit in a recliner and they are tucked in before being provided with an eye mask and headphones the headphones will play music that will follow the client's journey throughout the course of the ketamine treatment. And these headphones are also linked to a microphone so that the therapist can speak to the client. And they will either check in or inquire about a booster. During the actual ketamine treatment, There is no therapy that is done

[00:11:33] typically, the ketamine session itself lasts between 90 and 120 minutes, and then the therapist will assist with taking the gear off before debriefing on the experience. And then prior to leaving the clinic with a designated driver the doctor will do a brief neural check to ensure that they are not a fall risk.

[00:11:56] And then clients are asked to set up. their first integration session within 1 to 10 days following their ketamine treatment. And in the integration sessions, a client will work collaboratively with the therapist to try and figure out ways to capitalize on ways to integrate information that came about during or sometime after the ketamine session.

[00:12:23] So that in a not so very nutshell is ketamine assisted psychotherapy at IIT. 

[00:12:33] Cynthia: So this is specifically at IIT because it sounds like it's very comprehensive. It's holistic, which is amazing to be able to bring in the spiritual component the altar. I love that. so Olivia, you are a health coach on staff at IIT. So at what point do you step in? What is your role within the team during this process? Yeah, 

[00:13:01] Olivia: so it's still developing. I came on staff in the fall we're still trying to figure out what the best kind of sequence of events is to implement coaching into ketamine assisted psychotherapy because it's a pretty new thing to bring coaching into that actually.

[00:13:17] What has been working so far is to have one coaching session before the ketamine session. And again, it's similar to what the therapist is going to work on with preparation. So I would talk to a client about their goals, what they want to get out of it. What maybe physical health goals they have, coaching is a different scope of practice, which I know we'll talk about.

[00:13:40] So just doing a little bit of prep with them, getting to know each other, building rapport. And then after their medicine session, they would come back to 

[00:13:48] me and work with 

[00:13:49] me for, four to six sessions afterwards. And we would work on the integration and the goals that they set in prep. 

[00:13:57] Cynthia: Yeah.

[00:13:58] Cause as I was hearing Courtney talk about. Attuning the patient and prepping them totally the thought of health coaching popped in my mind because I'm like, this is what coaches do is think about what the next steps are and creating that vision for whole health and well being.

[00:14:14] So it's nice that. IIT is thinking about that too and bringing in coaches as another professional that can help patients along this journey. So Courtney, I know too that there is some history here, right? Cause it's not like it came out of nowhere. Ketamine assisted therapy. Though suddenly it seems like a recent buzzword that I've been hearing about a lot.

[00:14:39] There's been a Netflix documentary about psychedelic healing. I'm curious to know what you know about the history and like why now? Why is psychedelic therapies coming into play? 

[00:14:50] Courtney: Yeah. I think that there needs to be a distinct differentiation between natural psychedelics and synthetic psychedelics to answer this question.

[00:15:01] Because natural psychedelics have been used for ages in indigenous communities for various purposes. Dating back to, I almost want to say who knows when because that was. Long before we put the pen to the paper or even yeah, kept records of such things. So it's synthetic.

[00:15:23] Psychedelics, specifically LSD, was the first psychedelic that was used in research and clinical practice by psychologists and psychiatrists in the early 1950s, following the discovery of LSD by Albert Hoffman in 1938. Using psychedelics for mental health purposes is not a new phenomenon.

[00:15:46] At all. Numerous studies have been conducted supporting the effectiveness of ketamine with various mental health disorders, but it wasn't until 2019 that the FDA approved the use of intranasal specifically as ketamine for treatment resistant depression. And that's when That formally entered into a doctor's offices and clinics, but this did not involve ketamine assisted psychotherapy going back to this was just ketamine treatment where clients would go in, receive the treatment from the doctor, get the medical clearance to leave.

[00:16:29] Cynthia: And it's interesting because now I've heard that multiple routes of administration with ketamine, what is the difference between the different routes? And why is one FDA approved and one not? Is there a difference in effect depending on how you administer it? 

[00:16:47] Courtney: There's definitely a difference in effect.

[00:16:50] So ketamine can be administered lots of ways. It can be given orally, sublingually, intranasally, subcutaneously, or intramuscularly. At IIT, we administer the ketamine via lozenge and intranasally or intramuscularly. And there definitely is a difference in effect based on the route However, I am not the one to ask about standard administration for therapeutic purposes, because it is our doctor who determines the amount and the route that the ketamine will be administered based upon information that is gathered during the medical evaluation.

[00:17:34] Cynthia: I see. So it's unique to each individual and their own history. And I see. 

[00:17:40] 

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[00:18:43] Cynthia: Okay. I know Olivia for you, it's been a passion of yours to really create a safe space for your clients as a coach. So based on your experience thus far working with. Patients going through ketamine assisted therapy how do you see this fitting in to healing trauma and, why is this form of care something that could be really supportive for patients like this?

[00:19:14] Olivia: Yeah, I definitely want to hear Courtney's take on this too because I think there's so many things we could talk about regarding trauma informed care and psychotherapy. Specifically speaking of the approach at IIT I think the way that they approach preparation and integration in such a deep, holistic, caring way is really trauma informed 

[00:19:36] first and foremost.

[00:19:36] Um, all the therapists that I work with are trauma informed, and they really bring that approach to their care with their patients. More broadly, I think if we talk about the neuroplasticity that ketamine provides, it's changing the internal structures of people's brains, right? And that allows people to break through barriers that they were previously unable to break through in typical talk therapy or.

[00:20:04] In other modalities that they have been using. So it really provides, I think, just a new powerful tool for people to approach their trauma with and we see just like a little bit of hope. I think that's like, when I talk to patients who go through this, they come out of it. And so many of them say.

[00:20:24] For the 1st time, I have a little bit more hope about being able to heal and being able to be the person I want to be right. So that's how I see means therapy. being a powerful tool for healing trauma. I would love to hear Courtney's take on it as well. 

[00:20:44] Courtney: Yeah. I can only echo literally everything that you just said and that it's, a powerful tool for healing trauma because of the integration process following the medicine session.

[00:20:56] Ketamine on its own is, can still be more effective than an SSRI. But without integration creating lasting change can, be challenging. When the ketamine is introduced to the brain, it creates more neural chemicals, allowing for the possibility for neurons to grow new connections.

[00:21:18] And when that's paired with therapy as a developing new neural pathways to aid in various changes, such as allowing experiences of dissociation to give people the opportunity to re expose themselves to what's scary in a non threatening manner to reappraise the information in a new perspective.

[00:21:42] I think it was in Michael Pollan's book, how to change your mind, or it might have even been Dr. Doss, who had said this, but I heard this analogy of, ketamine's effect on the brain and, if you think of it, If you think of your brain like a snow hill that, is used for skiing or sledding and your trails are deep.

[00:22:07] So your deep trails that are often used are your behaviors, your thoughts, your feelings, your reactions. And if those are what's keeping someone stuck. Trying a ketamine medicine session is almost as if your snow hill had just received a fresh coat of snow to lay new tracks of how to behave how to respond, developing new habits.

[00:22:43] cognitions and such. So yeah, 

[00:22:48] Cynthia: I love that analogy. And I'd imagine also with coaching and therapy to have that fresh track to work with must also be Really satisfying professionally to be like, okay, like we, we can do this, like we can work through so much more effectively and I know from, you had your own personal experience, Courtney, recently because a part of your training was to actually experience some ketamine assisted Support as well.

[00:23:17] So I, I'm just personally curious. I'm sure listeners would love to hear. Can you tell us about your experience and how it informs your work with clients? Sure. 

[00:23:27] Courtney: Absolutely. Thanks for asking. First off, I will start off by saying this is not a mandated experience of doing the training. At IIT, this is totally optional.

[00:23:42] I opted to do it. Throughout my clinical practice, I have always believed that self disclosure can be a very powerful tool. And having done psycho or having done ketamine assisted psychotherapy myself is no exception. My ketamine Experience was one of the most beautiful, intense, and profound experiences of my life.

[00:24:12] I was definitely very intentional going into my CAP session, and I was very cognizant of how I nourished my body prior to that session, as well as after the session. I was very intentional with how I spent my time, how I spent my energy. And I, maintained that for a few days following. And I felt it was important for me to be mindful of the company and the space that I put myself in.

[00:24:43] And that is something that I would also encourage clients to do as well. With my ketamine session, I did it with other apprentices. In the program, and so it was done in a group setting and all of our journeys were different. So I would also want clients to keep in mind that their journey might not be like mine.

[00:25:12] But we do our best to go in with our intentions and then see where the journey takes us once. It begins and however it goes, I'll be with them every step of the way. 

[00:25:26] Cynthia: As you talk about how intentional you were with your lifestyle choices before and after, again, what comes to mind is How a health coach could play such a significant role in this process.

[00:25:42] I know it's just starting to be integrated, but I wonder, Olivia, based on your experience and then your own expertise in the field of integrative health coaching, how do you imagine health coaching being integrated into the program in the future? 

[00:25:59] Olivia: I really see coaching fitting in like totally seamlessly.

[00:26:03] I've worked alongside therapists for my entire coaching career outside of, assisted psychotherapy and it fits seamlessly there. And this is really no different, 

[00:26:14] With the neuro plasticity that happens, there's so much potential for behavior and habit change. And I think it can get sometimes overwhelming almost for a patient or client to figure out what to prioritize and what to pick and choose sometimes like what they want to integrate because there's a limited amount of time that you work with the therapist after the medicine session.

[00:26:39] So coaching can provide that extension of care with a client. It adds a different perspective to the healing that can take place. It adds, another support person to the care team and really brings the integrative, holistic approach to integration. 

[00:26:58] I also see coaching as very supported, supportive of the work the therapists do. And relieving almost some of the burden off their shoulders of having to try to help a client integrate everything that they've learned, but also creating a plan for sustainable change moving forward. So the coach can take on certain areas that the client wants to work on, which allows each of us a therapist and coach to really dig into our areas of expertise.

[00:27:29] and support the client holistically. 

[00:27:34] Cynthia: So therapists being able to tackle the things like carving those new neural pathways and new reactions, responses to the trauma that is being healed. And then that way they're not there. Having to dedicate that valuable time to, what are the lifestyle things that you're going to do for yourself?

[00:27:53] Who are you surrounding yourself with? What's your nutrition looking like? What's your, water intake, exercise? All of that could then be under the umbrella of the health coach and the therapist can trust that and really zero in on the mental health aspect. 

[00:28:08] Olivia: Coaching is really that space for the foundational elements of health, I think, like sleep and nutrition and movement, even like finding joy in your hobbies again, or moving forward with new routines and habits and being able to work with that with clients is just allows the therapist more time to dig into what they need to dig into with the client.

[00:28:32] Cynthia: Yeah. What do you think about that, Courtney? Does that sound good? 

[00:28:36] Courtney: Oh yes. Oh yes. When I think of the word integrative and holistic care, I think of holistic as spelled with a W, not an H. And it really is. a whole team that is providing care. And I just see all of our roles as being a very necessary part of the process and integrating those long lasting changes.

[00:29:02] And I don't think it would be as successful if we didn't have the process and we didn't have each other.

[00:29:09] Yeah. 

[00:29:10] Cynthia: And it's so true, right? It's, They always say it takes a village raising a child, but I think it takes a village just being a whole person and having the right care, the right support. And especially if you're moving through trauma, I think we really do need that sense of a village, that sense of a community.

[00:29:29] And so it sounds being able to have Doctor, therapist, health coach, all working together just makes the whole experience more productive, successful, and it just feels better, feels more supportive. Absolutely. 

[00:29:46] Based on your experiences and any emerging research, I wonder what you both might see in the future in regards to whether it's ketamine assisted therapy or any psychedelic therapy and what its place in the world will be.

[00:30:03] I know Courtney recently went to a conference, why don't we start with you and just hear where you see the future of this kind 

[00:30:10] Courtney: of work? It definitely, oh gosh, it's a big question. Yeah, I had just come from the psychedelic science 2023 conference, which is the world's largest psychedelic conference and is by far the biggest.

[00:30:29] And most delightfully overwhelming conference I have ever been to with. 11 or 12, 000 attendees all in one space. Yeah. A few of my takeaways regarding the future of psychedelics used for, mental health medicine is that this is just the beginning. I have learned that right now, hopefully in the near future, the FDA will also be approving the use of MDMA for the purpose of treating trauma, and that will be just as involved of a process as I described with the ketamine assisted psychotherapy at IIT.

[00:31:23] And then also using other psychedelics, such as psilocybin, or I've also heard great benefits regarding DMT and ibogaine, and there's just so much, the only place to go is up from here but If there's an additional takeaway from the conference that I can speak to, it's the slow and steady wins the race.

[00:31:55] This is not something that we want to rush and that it needs to be done carefully with consideration to all the nuances and, all the details. And just keeping a humble mind and that it's not going to be perfect. This is just like any other approach to working with mental health. This is not a magic bullet.

[00:32:22] This is not going to be a cure all. And just to be humble and to be okay with not knowing, and that's okay. 

[00:32:30] Cynthia: I'm so glad that you got to have that experience and I'm just astounded by the number. Like clearly this is something people are recognizing as a powerful tool. It's something people are gravitating towards.

[00:32:46] I wonder for you, Olivia, if you have anything to add in terms of, what you're seeing in. Your work and your space of psychotherapy or in terms of psychedelics and, health coaching, all of that interweaving together. 

[00:33:05] Olivia: Yeah, I feel a little overwhelmed sometimes because I don't see a lot of Coaching and psychedelics in the literature yet.

[00:33:17] So it feels a little bit like I'm like, plowing my own furrow in the field. And so I'm excited, hopefully, down the road to see more maybe some research or just connect with more people in the coaching world who are working with psychedelic assisted therapy more personally with my work at IIT.

[00:33:37] I want to. expand maybe into some group work. Speaking of, trauma informed care, I feel like bringing group and community into CAP is really important and providing a coaching group where clients can come together and connect with each other, I feel is very important. So that's My next steps, I feel going down the road.

[00:34:01] Cynthia: Yeah, that would be amazing. After, having those therapy sessions to then have an opportunity to connect in a group, to share experiences, to feel validated, to learn from each other and to have that facilitated support, I'm sure would be invaluable as they integrate what they're learning into their daily lives. 

[00:34:26] Olivia: Absolutely. Yep. 

[00:34:28] Cynthia: So now if listeners want to, experience this themselves, maybe they are a good candidate. They feel they have tried a bunch of different options for healing their trauma and They haven't tried this, what would be that process?

[00:34:45] How did they find out more? Where would they start?

[00:34:49] Courtney: Listeners can email me at my professional email and that's Courtney at center for sexual wellness. org. Otherwise they can contact the Institute for integrative therapies.

[00:35:02] They could also visit the Institute for integrative therapies website to schedule a discovery call to speak with our administrative assistant to learn more about ketamine assisted therapy. And if it's something they would like to go through with.

[00:35:18] Cynthia: Great. So it sounds like there's just learning more online, being able to connect there. And and then I wonder too, if there is just one takeaway that you'd hope listeners walk away from this conversation with, what would that be? And we can start with Olivia. 

[00:35:36] Olivia: so I would really encourage people to reach out to it and book a discovery call. You will get so much information on what the process will be, what the cost will be, what insurance will cover, what insurance will not cover and all the stuff you feel like you probably will need to make the next step forward.

[00:35:59] So reach out to me if you want to talk about psychedelics and coaching. I'm always I'm just interested in talking to people about this and learning more about it and making networking connections 

[00:36:11] Cynthia: yeah. Olivia, if people did want to connect with you, whether they are also coaches in the space of psychedelic care, psychotherapy or if someone, Just really resonates with you and wants to work with you in your coaching world as well.

[00:36:29] How do they connect with you? 

[00:36:31] Olivia: Yeah, so you can connect with me through the website. I have a profile on there. If you are interested in doing. ketamine assisted psychotherapy and coaching, I would go that route. If you are just interested in doing coaching alone, maybe working on some prep work before jumping into therapy or CAP, you can email me at Liminal, L I M I N A L, H W C at gmail. com. 

[00:37:00] Cynthia: Wonderful. And all of these will also be linked in the show notes so you can check out all the websites, see everyone's emails also see their social media handles if you're, that's how you prefer to connect. And then I wonder for you, Courtney, what would be that one takeaway you hope people walk away from this conversation with?

[00:37:21] Courtney: Just to... Be open to the possibility that Ketamine assisted psychotherapy might be the thing that helps them to get unstuck and to move forward and to be who they want to be in life. And also that it takes a lot of courage to be so vulnerable in doing this type of treatment and it could be the thing that makes all of the difference.

[00:37:49] Cynthia: Beautiful. Thank you both for doing the work you're doing. Talk about trailblazing. It's it's I feel like a new world and especially for health coaching. It is like you said something I hadn't heard of before. So I feel like Olivia, you're the only person I know that's doing this kind of work and Courtney for you to be in this program and already the work you do with your clients through your psychotherapy.

[00:38:16] I think is huge. So to be able to add this as an offering is such a gift. So thank you both so much for everything that you're doing and for sharing your wisdom on this podcast today. 

[00:38:29] Courtney: Thanks. Thank you, Cynthia. Yeah. Thanks for having us. 

[00:38:33] Cynthia: Thank you so much for listening to the Well Connected Twin Cities podcast. Did you learn something new? Did you feel that spark of hope and excitement for what is possible? Because so much is possible. Tell us about it in a review on Apple podcast. Not only would we absolutely love hearing from you, but these reviews help our ratings and help other curious minds like you find this resource.

[00:38:58] We are always better together. Thank you again and see you next time.